Maryam Namazie on Sam Harris’s Waking Up Podcast

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Earlier this week, I released a podcast interview with a Muslim convert from Boston. In nearly two hours of discussion, I was unable to get them to reveal why they converted, or what they believe about Islam. It was a truly fruitless experience, but I took comfort in the knowledge that I had a strong claim for the most frustrating podcast ever inflicted on the universe. Then Sam Harris released his discussion with Maryam Namazie, as you can hear below:

What the hell happened there then?

I’ve interviewed both Sam and Maryam, and I’m truly grateful for their work. In a world where many think they can just slap ‘activist’ in their Twitter profile and call it a day, Maryam is a true activist in every sense of the word, whose compassion and concern for human rights is palpable.

One of the reasons I enjoy Sam’s output so much is because it covers a huge range of topics, from religion, self defence, violence, meditation, airport security, gun control and more. I always learn something.

I was aware of the shots fired between them (namely over the issue of profiling) before going into this conversation and I was looking forward to some common ground finding, or some opinion changing.

It seems two different conversations were taking place here though. Sam wanted to speak about specific issues and Maryam responded by talking generally about Human Rights. I find this particularly disappointing considering Maryam uses terms like ‘bigot’ and ‘racist’ to describe views like Harris’s, yet doesn’t seem keen to detail the reasons that led her there.

This feels like a missed opportunity. I’m also seeing some bizarre tribal side taking (and abuse) online in response to this discussion. Which is very silly (and unnecessary). I for one see no issues with acknowledging the differences between them, yet continuing to support the great work they are both doing in the fight against theocratic fascism.

I’d be keen to get your thoughts in the comments.

Stephen Knight is host of The #GSPodcast. You can listen to The Godless Spellchecker Podcast here, and support it by becoming a patron here.

141 comments

  • Like you (but presumably with lesser insight) I admire Maryam’s work. I first heard of her when she faced down Islamists at Goldsmith’s and was deeply impressed by both that and what later I learned of her campaigning.

    This was deeply unimpressive. It was impossible to know whether she had any but the most cursory understanding of Sam’s work. Worse, I don’t think she knows how to debate, feeling each disagreement required expansive, rambling speeches often – in my small view – riddled with internal inconsistencies. It appeared ill tempered, hectoring and on occasion rude.

    I’m more than content to hear someone I disagree with make a point, provided the logic underscoring that point is clearly expressed. The frustration was an intelligent, formidable woman broadly on my side of the religion debate could not do that.

  • I came away with a much less favorable opinion of Maryam after listening to this. Similar to what happened to you last week, many of her responses to simple yes or no question were long winded rants about human rgihts, changing the topic half way through those rants, and finally punctuating them with accusations of Sam’s rudeness for interrupting her. Sorry, but you don’t get to go on a five minute tangent about something totally unrelated to the question being posed and not get interrupted. It’s a waste of everyone’s time.

    I don’t know if she simply lacks the cerebral horsepower to stay on message here or if she is deliberately trying to obfuscate the issues, but she speaks often in vague generalities, displays an absolute insistence on disagreeing with Sam, and seems to have a truly utopian view of the world that is totally devoid of any sense of pragmatism or even understanding of Islamists’ devotion to Islamism.

  • Hi Stephen,
    I too thought it was awful and agree with you on both Sam and Maryam and their contributions. There’s an element of psychology at work here which I will just refer to as Maryam’s stubbornness. A certain amount of ‘sunk cost’ driving her responses (I think) given that she’s been so adamant in sticking to her claims of bigotry towards Sam. It’s not entirely coherent and it does feel like two different conversations going on. What I’m left with is the knowledge that Sam came prepared while Maryam chose to saunter about in humanitarian land for the better part of 2 hours. It was very disappointing and I do wish the interview hadn’t been released. If Sam’s decision not to release the interview with the Yale law student was because of a breakdown in their conversation, this attempt could easily be thrown in the bin with it. I do blame Maryam for the degenerate nature of the talk they had. She seems vague, off topic and generally evasive.

  • I’m still making sense of it all. Very very disappointing.

  • Got to agree with Oscar. This interview should have just been dumped with the failed Salon interview. It was a painful listen and Namazie came across highly irritating and with dreadful conversational skills. I see now, despite Sam’s heroic levels of patience and calmness in that discussion, she is now smearing him as far-right bigot like the Regressive Left do. That is simply poor form.

  • I think, being charitable to Maryam, that she meant to say something like this:

    Human rights are, by definition, universal. Therefore, they apply to everyone, even Islamists. Freedom of speech and all those other Enlightenment values apply to them as well. Anyway, you can’t tell if someone is an Islamist just by looking at them or asking a couple of questions at the border, so you assume innocence until guilt is proven (another Western, “Liberal” thing to do)… and so you let them in. Once they’re in, you hold them to the same (secular) rule of law everyone else is held to, and rotten apples will get plucked out by police and intelligence services. If, on the other hand, you assume everyone is an Islamist (or potential Islamist) until they prove otherwise, you will necessarily leave genuine refugees stuck at the border or worse. (Maybe?) This is what she refers to as collective punishment.

    That said, I cringed throughout the entire conversation and ended up with a massive headache. The broader, general point that Sam was trying to make, but somehow didn’t state plainly, is that even mainstream Muslims are already a problem as far as integration goes, and we’ve seen the results of that over the last 30 years of multiculturalism. European-born Muslims are killing over cartoons, antisemitism is way up, honor killings, FGM, separate courts, etc. So the issue is this: what happens to a tolerant, democratic society when you import millions of intolerant, undemocratic people? How many Arabic or African freethinkers, secularists, feminists, or gays will make the Cologne attacks “worth it”? For every refugee, or descendant of refugees, that turns into an Ayaan Hirsi Ali, how many end up turning into one of the Kouachi brothers? Even the Islamists that regularly harass Maryam herself… did they just come from nowhere?

    Anyway, I’m looking at this from Latin America, where there the Muslim population is zero (we have plenty of other problems, don’t worry). So maybe I’m missing something.

    Cheers.

    • “The broader, general point that Sam was trying to make, but somehow didn’t state plainly…”

      The most frustrating thing about the interview is that even if Sam didn’t put a given question as clearly as he potentially could have, it seems clear it wouldn’t have made a difference if he had. It became clear Maryam was determined to avoid going down any road that might shake the stance she’s decided to take. Highly immodest and very disappointing as I have such an appreciation for a lot of the work she’s doing and was so sympathetic toward her after her treatment at Goldsmiths.

      Her response to the Podcast on Twitter has been no better. Repeatedly claiming it was an issue of Sam trying to “Force me to agree when I didn’t.” Hard to see that as anything but disingenuous and it makes it difficult to support her in her more admirable endeavours going forward…But I guess I’ll just have to do my best.

  • Yesterday I listened to Stephen’s torturous conversation with the US convert to Islam, and was immensely frustrated with her inability to answer the simplest of yes/no questions. This morning, I enjoyed (endured?) Sam’s conversation with Maryam – and feel even more frustrated!
    But I think Sam was right to publish this podcast; it’s a perfect example of how hard conversation can be, even with folk on the same team. Although Maryam didn’t seem to agree with Sam labelling recent Twitter criticism as ‘friendly fire’, rather seeing him more like the enemy. I think the podcast is also a prime example of how easy it is, even unwittingly and undesired, to provide ample rope for others to hang themselves.
    I’d summarise Maryam’s performance in three points: 1) Resorting to ‘You keep interrupting me Sam, let me finish!’ is a cheap shot. I’m sure if Maryam listens back on the 2 hours, she’ll realise she interrupted just as much. 2) She rambles far too much, at times seemed to be all over the place, far less articulate than Sam (I’d say far less ‘thought through’ too. 3) She refused to answer very simple yes/no questions, even when posed multiple times in different ways.
    As Sam said at the end: “I’m not sure we understand each other any better”. Which is a real shame. But I think the blame clearly falls on one side of the conversation.

  • It seems Maryam hasn’t understood Sam’s anti-profiling view when he talks about profiling. Sam got close to helping her understand, but alas the mood had already deteriorated so that conversation was abandoned.
    If I understood Maryam’s view on immigration correctly it appears she wants criminals stopped at the border, but for the border to be open to everyone else. She claimed any Islamists that make it into Europe could be dealt with by having their bad ideas challenged. She also doesn’t appear to think there are sufficient economic reasons for not accepting everyone who meets her open border criteria, despite acknowledging millions are on the move.
    I was reminded of a video I watched of Maryam talking in Dublin in 2011. She was challenged in the Q&A by an iERA Islamist. Her response decried the influence of Islamists citing the suburb of Tower Hamlets having been taken over by Islamists & academia infiltrated by Islamists too. I would love to know how she thinks a larger number of Islamists would have their minds changed by challenging their ideas, when the current numbers are proving resistant to integration and have so much influence already.
    I looked forward to this conversation as I genuinely thought her ideas about people like Sam and Douglas were just the result of misunderstanding. I don’t think that any more. I think Maryam does believe she understands Sam & Douglas. I don’t think she does. And worse than that I thought I understood Maryam, but now I’m not sure I do.

    • Yes spot on. Have watched and listened to Maryam for a long time, as with Sam. She lost me here & just seemed..well rude.

  • I didn’t feel Maryam came across as well as she did in your interview, but I actually put that more with Sam and his interview style than with Maryam. I think if Sam let Maryam talk for longer she could have articulated herself properly, instead his interruptions put her in what felt like a defensive position.

    I love Sam’s work and I am disappointed by this interview and a little with Sam. My biggest disappointment came about through the Tommy Robinson Pegida section. Sam knows about the importance of reading around any controversial figure, such as Robinson. But it appears from his own admission he knows little about him and his history except for the Dave Rubin interview, which I also thought was pretty poor. I love the Rubin report but that interview was poorly done. Robinson went off on many tangents about refugees / immigrants unchallenged. It really felt like Dave Rubin had not really done his homework. I am all for free speech and letting people speak, but if you are doing it as a progressive and in the spirit of debate, an actual debate has to be had and peoples ideas need to be articulated and challenged otherwise it just ends up either one sided like the Rubin/Robinson interview or a train wreck like Sam’s interview with Maryam.

    Stephen I liked your recent interview, even though your guest was “enigmatic” in her answers (best word I could think off) you did not keep interrupting her or try and forcibly push her into certain areas. Sam seemed hooked on the “Bigot” label, which is understandable but he could have done that so much better, and how on Earth he got himself into a situation in which he and Maryam were arguing over such and such does not behead people so they are a lesser threat than Islamists is beyond me.

    I really like Sam but this interview was a mess and I personally put more of the blame on to him.

    I would love to see a moderated debate between Sam and Maryam, maybe Maajid Nawaz is the best man to be in the middle.

    • I have respected Sam’s work and Maryam’s work, but the fault in this interview does not lie with Sam. He pressed her to clarify her statements, to clarify some of the (many) contradictions she made. She was rude and I am disappointed with her in this podcast.

    • Your concept of “interview” is loaded. There are various different approaches to interviewing. Dave’s a lot less combative than Sam is. There’s no mandate on any interviewer to do their research or come up with a prior understanding of their guests. You might prefer that as a style, but it’s not inherent in the idea of interviewing. Alternatively some people think it’s better if you don’t know much about your guest, as it means you’ll treat them with less bias.

      • I think the whole problem hinges on whether this was supposed to be an interview (where one interlocutor asks the other questions), a debate (where both parties present their case in order to convince the other or the audience) or indeed a chat (where both parties share ideas and attempt to find common ground). Namazie seemed to be expecting to be interviewed and felt she got debated, Harris was hoping to have a chat and ended up drowned out in a rather one-sided debate.

        If Harris is to be blamed for the breakdown of communication here, I feel it is insofar as he failed to set out the terms beforehand, and pave the way for a constructive chat. Of course I have no idea to what extent he did or did not attempt to do that.

        • I agree 100% if Harris laid out his desire to debate rather than interview from the outset it may have helped.

          Possibly his attempts to get to first principals and to interrogate the why as opposed to the what would have been more fruitful. Instead he ran into the immovable object of one very determined and single-minded person.

          I get the sense that Namazie may have had some media training in her time, she artfully (or blatantly) dodged any attempt the explore the underlying ideas or any internal inconsistency in her stances, for example on open borders.

          • I definitely don’t think the fault is 100% Sam’s, not even close. He humbly said (either at the beginning of the podcast or at the end, I don’t remember) that he would work on the way he does his podcasts with his guests, but since I’ve been listening to him, he has made it clear that his podcasts are not interviews in the traditional journalistic sense, and he does not even call himself a journalist. He says his podcasts are more like discussions and conversations, because he talks almost as much as the guests he interviews. I have a hard time believing that he wouldn’t have told Maryam that upfront, but if he hadn’t, yes, that is a concern.

            But regardless, the behavior between the two is starkly different. Maryam was petulant and Sam was incisive – it was clear who was trying to have a meaningful discussion and who was not. Also, in terms of the aftermath of the podcast, I am impressed that Sam has told his followers on twitter to be respectful to Maryam.

        • You’re right in that it seems Maryam thought she was going to be interviewed and Sam thought they were bound for a friendly exchange. Neither of them did enough of their homework though. Maryam apparently has never listened to his podcast other than the one with the guy (name escapes me) that raised her ire and assumed Sam’s chumminess was a reflection of Sam’s approval of the man’s ideas. Sam should not have brought up Tommy Robinson, that, for Maryam, was like receiving a grenade.

  • So, profiling based on being “muslim” is not good, but profiling based on being “salafi” is OK. So “salafi” is behavioural but “muslim” isn’t. I’m not sure she has thought that through.

    Her description of “open” borders is clearly not based on the definition of the word “open” and is more restrictive than anything I’ve heard anyone else propose. The use of “economic refugee” suggests she doesn’t know the meaning of “refugee” either.

    This has me concluding that Sam was probably correct about the misunderstanding, but he could have handled it vastly better, if only by staying quiet, his interruptions rarely did any good.

    I was pretty much on Maryams side for the first hour, if only to hear what she had to say. Moving through she seemed to engage less with what Sam was actually saying. Perhaps he was saying so much it wasn’t actually possible. This is a general criticism I have of Sams podcasts, although the discussion format can be very good.

    Towards the end she was almost defiant. I can’t decide whether that is down to her frustration with the process, not understaning Sams point or just not engaging.

    Challenging ideas at borders!!! Thats just too funny.

    “You can’t prosecute an Islamist”. Well feck me, at the 3rd time of stating it I think that one finally got through, despite the subsequent waffle.

    Evidently criticising her is easy, but I would rather point out that she is one of the very few in this country who are willing and able to directly and publicly challenge islamists (and despite Sams final snide comment, a nude protest covered in Arabic script, may be effective). Until our elected leadership find the courage to do so in a more authorative and consistent manner she should be amplified, protected, and admired as she goes about it.

  • I could be wrong but this could be a left (Namazie) vs right (Harris) thing. Neither of them are extreme in their outlook but they are from opposite political sides so to speak – albeit both close-ish to the centre line. This is where the ‘racist’ & ‘bigot’ vitriolic slurs against Harris come from (the US left) despite these slurs being most inaccurate of course.

    Don’t know but just a theory. A bit disappointed in Maryam if I’m honest.

    • Wow, those are some rather bizarre claims!

      A woman who openly declares herself to be a communist is close to the center whilst a man who holds liberal positions on, as far as I can see, every major issue except the ‘war on terror’ – where I would describe his position as pragmatic – is on the ‘right’. I would be curious to see just where you think ‘the center’ is.

      Do you work for the BBC per chance?

      • When you opened with ‘wow’ I was turned off replying till now. It’s a bit passe – a bit like saying ‘not’ after a sentence a la ‘Waynes World’ – didn’t think anyone did that anymore. But I’ll explain my theory anyway.

        I didn’t know she was a communist – I’m not disputing this at all but I’ve never read that before? Where can I find that out to verify? Sam Harris is centre right if you look at it from a UK perspective as all US politics sits to the right of our centre line (bar the anomaly that is Bernie Sanders). That is where that part of my theory comes from. And it is possible of course to hold liberal views from the right – same sex marriage, living wage, prison reform all being introduced by the current Cameron Government.

        But no doubt you’ll reply with ‘wow’ again ….. you know …… just to assert your superiority on this matter.

        • She said she was a communist near the beginning of the exchange. I’ve heard her say it several times in other recordings.

          • Thank you Guy. I must say I find her delivery difficult to listen to at the best of times but this was just annoying. It’s a shame because I respect what she does normally.

        • As far as I am aware, the word ‘wow’ is merely an expression of surprise with no arch connotations. Whether or not it is a word that can be used to signify ‘superiority’ is unknown to me and I have not yet received the memo informing me that the word is now archaic and sniffed at by the ‘in crowd’. Perhaps you are right or perhaps your understanding of this petty little matter is as well informed as your understanding of the political position of a woman who during the course of the interview, the one on which you ostensibly were commenting, stated clearly that she considers herself to be a communist.

          I suspect that Sam Harris would be extremely surprised to find that he is of the right but, of course, I do lack your incisive analytical skills and up-to-date knowledge of linguistic trends so my notion can probably be ignored and you can get back to your, no doubt, wonderfully fulfilling search for three letter micro-aggressions.

        • Will you be writing to djhttweets to let them know about the ‘Wow’ thing too?

          • 1/ The ‘wow’ thing. You knew exactly what you were doing. You can play as innocent as you like but you knew. I’ve seen it on social media thousands of times before – albeit this is the first time anyone has had this approach with me. Its a sign of arrogance, a sign of ‘I’m right’, and it prefaces any debate with an air of superiority from one side. It’s a ‘playing to the gallery’ thing & I don’t think it is an attractive approach. All I would say to you when you enter into debate on a blog is tone it down a little from the outset as you might get a better response. Guy – who followed up your initial remark – was much more civil in pointing out my mistake regarding Namazie – you should take a leaf out of his book. Now I will move onto the point I was making …

            2/ You are right about Namazie – I accept that I was wrong & I confess I found the exchange so painful to listen to very soon into the recording that I shut it down before picking up her Communist leanings. Admirable though her extrication from Islam is, now I know she holds these political views I can feel less guilt at the disdain I felt when listening to the initial part of this exchange. If I’m honest which I feel I can be, I have found lectures by her in the past rather tedious in the delivery – despite agreeing with much of the content. This is why I turned off I guess.

            3/ Sam Harris holds liberal views of course he does – but I repeat it is quite possible to hold those views from the centre right (I do & so do several current politicians), which is where I believe Sam Harris sits. He regularly bemoans ‘the regressive left’ in his written work. Sam Harris is not a Republican – I never stated that although his parents were – so lets assume he’s a Democrat for the purpose of this discussion. If he is a Democrat then (in UK parlance) he sits on the centre-right. The Democrats are far closer politically to our current Conservative Government than they are to Corbyn’s Labour Party, for example. Therefore my central point (that Harris & Namazie) were political opposites still holds. As you have quite rightly pointed out the political chasm between them is much wider than I first thought – but if anything that supports my theory behind the discord in their exchange even more does it not? Somebody else on this thread theorised that it was a ‘man vs woman’ thing – a Venus vs Mars if you will. Surely that theory is no less or more speculative than mine?

            You were right to point out my error regarding Namazie & ultimately grateful that you did, I just didn’t like the way you did it. I stand by my view of Harris however & equally I’ve not seen a constructive response from you criticising the main premise behind the theory that I offered. That is that they differ politically & this is where the discord was born. I would be interested to know your alternative theory also.

            The biggest insult of all you made of course was suggesting I worked for the agenda-ridden BBC. I was horrified that anyone would think that – this was actually worse than ‘wow’ ……. :¬)

  • I never thought Namazie would be so rude to anyone. Sam’s patience was commendable – as is both their work but communism aside, I now have some doubts about Maryam Namazie’s capability of winning hearts & minds in this world war of ideas.

  • I think their priorities are inversed: Maryam thinks bigotry and practices that promote it (intentionally or not) have to be avoided at all costs, even if this means islamists being let in, Sam thinks that letting islamists in has to be avoided at all costs, even if it means that some practices that can lead to bigotry towards whole populations are used

    Sam fails to admit though that the practices he is describing are being used in bigoted ways by resorting to theoretical edge cases, rather than acknowledging that there is a real problem that in its scale is more important than the problem of (potential) islamism infiltrating the west

  • (not finished listening, just over an hour in….) I feel there is an aspect of 2 different conversations, both running on parallel tracks.
    Made for very frustrating listening – it felt like Maryam was expecting to be “attacked” or would be “made to” defend her position. To me, it was crystal clear that Sam Harris wanted to either clarify HIS (and those in similarly attacked…) position, or wanted to understand exactly how, or why, someone found their position.
    There were points of – almost – the “po-tay-toe/po-tah-toe” debate in aspects (“no, no, no….don’t profile Muslim looking people, you should be looking for Jihadists”??) and where Sam tried to steady the chat, he was either attacked for not letting her speak (no! he was valuing your time, or pulling you back to the point!) or she just didn’t answer – at all.

    It is a shame – I feel there is a LOT of respect for Maryam, but she stamps her point about that she ends up stamping on people’s points. I think a lot of people will look twice, or put under extra scrutiny, those people and groups she attacks and suggests are spouting “bigoted/racist/hate-filled/etc” attitudes and beliefs. – Tommy Robinson is a prime example.

    I watched that Rubin Report interview – and I have to say, I agree 100% with what Sam Harris said.
    I listened to the Godless Spellchecker podcast the other day, and I feel the 2 of you nail exactly how I feel about Tommy.
    My opinions on the guy wasn’t pleasant – and was influenced by media. But that Rubin Report made me look deeper, and I have to say, I don’t see what I was led to believe was “Tommy Robinson” to what he actually appears to be…. listening to Maryam here, I feel that understanding where that unfair image of the guy has come from.

    I still like her – I still have respect for her and what she does (exmuslimbecause etc) – maybe not the “meeting of minds” that one might have hoped this COULD have been, but it felt very much like “learning something from what isn’t the case”?

  • She seems to think Sam, and others, shouldn’t point out the individuals who may have Islamist/Jihadist beliefs because they can’t help that a huge political movement has influenced them their whole lives. The solution to the problem of suicide bombers is not to stop potential suicide bombers, but to stop the political movements that create them. If that’s what Maryam is arguing I would like to know how she knows that strategy works better than any other.
    Additionally, what does this say about Maryam’s conception of personal responsibility and agency? Is the Jihadist responsible for their actions in the name of their Jihadist beliefs? According to Maryam, either not at all responsible or not entirely. I would like to hear her response to this line of questioning.

  • I haven’t listened to this podcast yet. Might need a liberal splash of whiskey first from the sound of things.

  • I thought it was very unfortunate that Maryam continued to state generalities and then attempt to get off the topic when some actual back and forth appeared to take place. She also continually complained of being interrupted but my view was that she was given a large amount of time to talk (I would like to see the time she was talking vs. Harris for a better objective measurement).

    Now two things are happening that always happen on twitter:
    (1) A bunch of jerks like Atheist Roo and others are being horrible to Maryam;
    (2) in response, she is retorting in a very unintellectual and, frankly, embarrassing way. This seemed to be a very similar response that Cenk Uygur had when he was, in my view, beaten up verbally a bit by Sam Harris.

    I disagree with some of Harris’ opinions but one thing I do not hear from him is direct misrepresentation of another person’s views purposefully. In Maryam’s case, I actually don’t think she meant to misrepresent what Harris said, I think she didn’t want to defend her opinion to a great degree so she stated general viewpoints and then attempted to get out before the specifics. Essentially, she talked past him in an attempt to avoid confrontation, which is purposeful, but is not malicious in ascribing certain viewpoints to Harris directly.

    One particular part, most would view it as a small part, that I didn’t like was when Maryam stated something to the effect that she can’t articulate as well as Sam. That wasn’t the issue at all. There is a big difference between articulating properly and omitting the requisite nuance.

    Maryam is exceedingly brave in many respects. I encourage people to divorce themselves from black and white views on people due to some examples of shifty or evasive actions.

  • Wow! The section on immigration was the first time ever I found myself actually – literally – shouting at my phone, and yes, I did sit through the whole episode of Miss “I converted to Islam but I’m not going to tell you why”.

    I felt Namazie was unreasonably impatient with Harris’ attempts to state/clarify his position, and I did feel most of Harris’ attempted interruptions were quite justified because they came as she’d been rambling quite a bit, typically attacking some very weak straw men. A particularly outrageous example was: “What is this hatred of young men? … There is this sort of thing like ‘Oh if you’re a young man, you should go and fight and you should go and die.'” Sure, she did accept that Harris doesn’t say this [“oh my goodness Sam, I didn’t say…”], but would anyone listening to this conversation say something as preposterous as that? Also (I paraphrase:) “I see refugees as individuals, not as a single group.” Well, good luck reclaiming any semblance of a moral high ground after that!

    All that said, I did see her comment on Twitter that she thought the interaction was an interview and not a chat, which I suppose makes her unwillingness to hear Harris’ side of the conversation more understandable, though it still seems needlessly counterproductive to me.

    One final peeve: it always strikes me as extremely patronising when one conversation partner keeps addressing the other by name, at least when it’s done as frequently as Namazie does in this podcast. It rather sounds like she’s addressing a small child – Christopher Hitchens’ indignant “Sir!” comes fondly to mind as an alternative for adults (although that would probably signal rather more hostility than warranted here). Not wanting to draw any other parallels with the guy, but she really reminded me of Cenk Uygur in this respect – if it wasn’t guaranteed to make my blood boil, I might sit down and tally the number of times he said “Sam” in that condescending way of his during those three awful hours of alleged “interview”. Yes, we all know whom you’re talking to, thank you very much…

    Anyway, I still feel like Lorimer above and others that Namazie’s is an important voice that should be amplified, and that she does extremely brave and important work, but I was honestly disappointed with what feels like an unwillingness to engage fully in this conversation.

    • Rereading my own post, I find myself worried that my comment about Namazie continually addressing Harris as Sam may sound uncharitable. In fact, I am inclined to give her the benefit of the doubt and assume she’s doing it unintentionally, without meaning to sound condescending. Either way, I personally still find it irritating, but of course that may well be just me. (Incidentally, I am fairly convinced Uygur does do it consciously and deliberately, as a means of talking down.)

  • This was very frustrating to listen to. Maryam seemed either unable or unwilling to go into detail on any topic, nor did she ever give a clear answer to a question. That by itself is annoying, but what makes it particularly frustrating is the fact that she, as Harris mentioned, is quick to accuse people of bigotry. I find it very difficult to respect people who throw out such labels but are completely unable and/or unwilling to back them up when asked for clarification. I also found her to be rather rude throughout the two hour talk.

    Her current responses on Twitter, where she is again completely misstating Harris’ views, are frankly embarrassing. They are also in stark contrast with the seemingly civil way she ended the podcast, which makes her seem quite dishonest and like a keyboard warrior who is very nasty online but refuses to engage with others in a normal conversation.

    Unfortunately, I come away from this questioning and reconsidering my perception of Maryam.

  • Some people are being very generous to Maryam Namazie on here. All I will say, is that as a result of her performance in this dialogue I’ve seen quite a few people now view Tommy Robinson or PEGIDA more positively. There is no way she has come out of this in a good light and appears to have actively turned people who wanted to support her off her views. Honestly, this interview should have just been dumped.

    • No, it shouldn’t. It was a real conversation in which Maryam showcased her conversational abilities (poor), her understanding of simple issues (lacking) and snide, condescending behavior toward an intelligent, focused and probing questioner. She showed little ability or inclination to participate like a reasonable person. Everyone needs to know that.

  • That was indeed uncomfortable to listen to.

    I think Sam Harris was right early on in suggesting that Maryam is needlessly making enemies where none need exist. She is obviously very passionate and principled in her stance against bigotry, but throwing the term around so loosely, at seemingly anyone who sees things from a different perspective, is very unhelpful. Her unwillingness to give a direct answer to the concerns raised be Sam regarding open borders was an example of just this way of dismissing everything not seen through her own world view.

    As I rarely have trouble understanding Sam’s points (or his frustration), perhaps I’m being unjustly biased against Maryam…

    Sam’s efforts at having challenging conversations are sometimes just a lesson in how difficult conversation can be… a lesson also to be drawn from other podcasts this week…

  • This frustrating podcast can be summed up in Douglas Murray’s comment to on his interview with Sam. ” It’s politics Sam, it’s politics!”

    • Kristina Andström

      Indeed. Or maybe “It’s ideology, Sam, it’s ideology”. This is a sad example how ideology makes rational discussion impossible. To me it seems Maryam Namazie has made human rights a dogma, not a practical tool for improving the human life.

  • I’m a fan of both Sam and Maryam. However, that was a very odd conversation. It was not a discussion or an interview despite Sam’s efforts. There were several points where Sam could have used Maryam’s exact language to gain common ground. One example, Maryam suggested profiling for “Islamists” instead of Muslims and Sam went further saying “Jihadists” rather than accepting her word. I’m sure Sam would love to profile for Islamists, but they refuse to wear signs. How this could be executed never got the chance to be discussed. Even if Sam had used “Islamists” I’m not at all confident that the conversation would have improved.

    Maryam’s refusal to see “Open Boarders” as a misguided term when she a moment later makes it clear that careful screening is required is also frustrating.

    As a side note, Maryam’s claim that Sam never let Maryam finish a thought is ludicrous! I’d bet she spoke for 75% of the time. She refused to allow any form of discussion.

    The bottom line for me is that both Sam and Maryam are doing a great job overall. Forcing them to agree on terminology and one another is not that important. Let them each fight the good fight on separate stages.

  • This was simply clarity of thought and a genuine approach to a difficult conversation met with childish unfocused waffle. The gulf between these two in terms of ability and quality is huge. One should be ashamed.

    You all know which way round the above applies, this should tell you everything.

  • I was actually a little worried about this podcast since Sam (excuse the first-name usage) announced it. My impression of Maryam is that she is no debater, and I didn’t think she would do well. Successful debaters seem to be quite specialized. Their thoughts are organized, they are rational and manage to maintain emotional distance from the subject being discussed. Not everyone can manage this.
    My impression of Maryam is that she is more of an “activist”. She is emotional, and can be easily flustered. I also get the feeling she came into this with her defences up.
    As others have said above I do believe she has an important role to play in this drama, in spite of this rather poor performance.

    • Maybe you have something there. Many subtle variations in these comments make for an interesting discussion on the disappointment. This is what occurred to me:

      Agree mostly with the Knight’s move on this frustrating mutual checking against any possibility of mating, and especially on the subsequent tribal mud slinging. Maryam Namazie appeared unwilling or unable to engage with Sam Harris, and left me wondering once more about the overuse of the “bigot” word by so many people. Accusing others of bigotry without proper recourse to open discussion strongly suggests judgemental silencing by, well, bigots! Maybe this is the failure of politics, that ultimately tribal prejudice reinforces personal blindness to a genuine call for unifying acceptance of difference in nuance, for gods’ sakes! Excessive naming of “bigots” suggests the age-old urge to identify scapegoats, which ultimately boils down to a deep psychological fear of becoming said scapegoat, as we all know. Being identified as a supporter of either party of this non-discussion is obviously a liability according to each tribe calling the other “bigot”. Also had me thinking that there are not that many stumbling blocks between Maryam and the so called regressive left: but that just naively exposes my own lack of understanding of what’s actually going down, probably. I have just remembered seeing a Maryam Namazie tweet that she quickly saw sense to delete, referring to “secular bigots” – signalling a default mechanism of the head surely, and therefore it must be time to remove “bigotry” from the brain, it has been rendered relatively meaningless anyway. Real bigots and real racists are real and abusing their meaning is
      categorically not helpful; in fact, it’s a load of old nonsense.

    • I understand what you say concerning Namazie’s approach: that she is more emotional, not a seasoned logical deabater. OK. However, she presumably wants to be taken seriously when she talks or writes about issues which concern her and she must therefore be prepared to defend her views in discussion if she is to be considered worthy of listening to.

      She has accused Harris of bigoted attitudes- this is a very serious claim. Her complete inability to defend this claim cannot be wished away by appeal to her different presentational style.

  • Sadly, Maryam’s clay feet are showing. I had a lot of admiration for her once, but her performance in this podcast has just confirmed my growing doubts about her ideology. I think her inability to be consistent in her views demonstrates how firmly-held ideological beliefs – whether religious or not – can distort your perception of reality. What came across most strongly in the podcast was her determination to impose her preferred view on things regardless of the evidence. She wants to believe that there’s no such thing as a culture clash, so she won’t consider it as a real possibility; she wants to believe that European governments can somehow weed out all the Islamists among a chaotic sea of immigrants, so she thinks people with less faith in bureaucracy are just being racist. This is dangerous thinking.

    And I’m left wondering if she really thinks we can overcome the Islamists just by challenging their ideas. I found that stunningly naive for someone who’s much more familiar with the Islamist mindset than I am. And I also wonder how she thinks we – as a people – can effectively challenge the Islamists by dismissing most of the people who recognise the threat of Islamism as ‘far right’ and therefore beyond the pale.

    I’ve noticed the occasional snidey remark from Maryam about various people and organisations over the last few years, and I’ve often felt she’s too free with labelling people ‘fascist’ or ‘far right’ which are terms she seems to use very loosely. In fact, I’d say that her use of ‘fascist’ or ‘far right’ labelling is similar to the way Islamists and Islamist/apologists use the term ‘islamophobe’. She seems to apply it to anyone whose critique of Islam or Islamism includes expressions of concern about uncontrolled immigration.

    Back in 2011 she co-authored a report called Enemies Not Allies: The Far Right, which was painfully thin on solid evidence and woefully rich in ad hominem arguments. It came across as slightly ridiculous, claiming that groups such at that motley crew of street protesters, the EDL, had some nefarious hidden fascist agenda. Any expression of patriotism or a desire to preserve their way of life was interpreted as a form of racism. To be fair the report did include the BNP, which I’d agree is a racist far-right organisation. But the other groups covered are all single-issue groups concerned about the threat of Islamisation of their countries; granted, they had differing solutions to the problem, some of which you may not agree with, but that doesn’t make them fascists. Fascists want to control society by establishing a dictatorship; these people just want to preserve their secular democracies and certain values such as free speech.

    Maryam has done amazingly good work over the years, especially in championing the rights of women in muslim countries and in getting the debate about Islam and Sharia on the political agenda and I know she’s a tough, courageous and strong woman, so I still think she’s somebody to admire – but maybe a little less wholeheartedly than I did in the past.

  • I was at INR5 in Vancouver last year and Maryam was there and gave a lecture about how “New Atheists” need to stop generalizing about all Muslims, which I think the general reaction from the crowd was “huh?”. So I can’t say I was too surprised by how the interview went, she clearly had some preconceived notions going into it and wasn’t going to let mere facts get in her way. I still completely support what she does, but lets just say I’m not sure I’m going to go out of my way to listen to interviews she does in the future.

  • A Herculean effort at patience by Sam Harris as Maryam launched into long diatribes in response to Sam’s attempts at specific and clarifying questions. Maryam’s definitions of Muslims as a victimized group versus Salafists as a behaviour was self